Shed & Shine â Duo Episode: The Noise of Money
00:00:00 - 00:00:09
Gino Wickman
My experience is the threshold that I thought would make me feel safe and secure. Once I hit it, I set a new one because it didn't.
00:00:22 - 00:00:30
Rob Dube
Hello everyone, my name is Rob Dube, and I am here with Gino Wickman. Where's the applause? Where's the applause?
00:00:32 - 00:00:35
Gino Wickman
Don't need it. Don't need it anymore, thank God. Past that.
00:00:36 - 00:00:38
Rob Dube
Oh, anymore. I love that. Wait, that's not our topic today.
00:00:38 - 00:00:41
Gino Wickman
Yeah, it's not, but subtle, subtle topic.
00:00:42 - 00:01:24
Rob Dube
Our topic is what I like to say is one of the taboo topics in life: money, specifically the noise of money. And we actually touched on this on a coffee shop episode a while back, but I'd like to take it a little bit deeper in this particular episode. So my understanding is that we're thinking about money many times throughout our day. I actually read a survey that was done in 2025 that was representative of all people in the US that said people think about money almost four hours a day. So if you're awake 16 hours, that's a quarter of your day. For younger adults, Gen Z and millennials, it's more like five hours a day.
00:01:24 - 00:01:53
Rob Dube
And it's showing up constantly in decisions through fear and even in moments of success. And for many high-performing, driven people, money becomes a measuring stick for safety, for their self-worth, and whether they are just okay. And based on that survey, we're experiencing constant mental chatter, emotional charges, and bodily reactions that are shaping how we work, lead, and live, often without us even realizing it.
00:01:53 - 00:02:13
Rob Dube
Now, I don't want this to become a conversation about the tactics or strategies to manage money, budget, et cetera. That's what we did in the coffee shop, and people could find out how to do that or probably already have all kinds of ways. This is more of an emotional awareness. It's what happens when we notice our relationship with money instead of letting it run us.
00:02:14 - 00:02:31
Rob Dube
Now, when we interrupt the future-based story of when this happens, then I'll be enough or have enough, and return to the present moment, it's pretty amazing. So what becomes possible when being whole comes first? All right, Gino, what came up for you?
00:02:32 - 00:02:51
Gino Wickman
Ooh, this is going to be a back-and-forth one because there's two things that came up, but I think this one's going to kind of unfold because I think you and I might be coming at this from two different directions. But here's what comes up first. It's one simple thing, and that is I believe we should talk about money.
00:02:51 - 00:03:38
Gino Wickman
Okay? And I've shared this in the past, you know, religion/spirituality, money, death, three taboo topics. I think we should all be talking about all of it. You know, there's no reason it should be a taboo topic. If we were all open-minded and not judgmental, they're very enjoyable, pleasurable conversations. So my first jumping-off point is we should all be talking about it. The person who's broke should be talking to somebody wealthy, and the person who's wealthy should be talking to somebody broke. And everything in between, just talk about money. It's so insightful to talk about money. And it's a different answer for everyone. Again, this theme that just keeps coming up: know thyself.
00:03:38 - 00:04:14
Gino Wickman
You know, at the end of the day, just live within your budget. I met a guy who bartends three days a week: Thursday, Friday, Saturday. And then he takes four days off every week, lives in an apartment. He's single. He doesn't have kids. He's happy as hell. So like, that's his life. That may not work for somebody else, but just simply live within your means, erase the judgment, stop comparing yourself to others, stop trying to be like your neighbor. And I think it's going to reduce a lot of the stress and the pain and the complexity. Point one.
00:04:14 - 00:04:50
Gino Wickman
Point two is from experience and in my observation, whether you are broke or whether you are wealthy, it's still complex and it's still a burden. Now, broke people look at a wealthy person and say, "Complex and a burden. How dare you?" Oh, it's pretty complex being wealthy. It's a burden being wealthy. And so on one side, when you're broke, you have the stress of not being able to pay your bills. On the other side, when you're wealthy, you have very complex issues to manage that wealth.
00:04:51 - 00:05:47
Gino Wickman
I would suggest broke people and wealthy people are probably worrying just as much about their money. You know, so if it is four or five hours a day, it's probably the same number for each. The point in that is, while the broke person is stressed out, the wealthy person is dealing with the same issues, spending the same amount of time. And like this joke I have, because this is what happens with most second and third generation wealthy families. So the mother or father kills themselves building an empire, passes the money to the kids, and then has the pain of watching their kids become lazy asses, fight over the money, and piss all the money away. That's what happens most of the time. So look at the stress in that. So it's like you still have problems is my point. You still have complexity. It's still a burden, but let's talk about it. Let's talk about it, which is what I do with lots of people.
00:05:47 - 00:05:59
Gino Wickman
Now, all that said, I would recommend having money if I'm not being clear. I choose that complexity and burden where possible. And there's my jumping-off point from your jumping-off point.
00:05:59 - 00:06:26
Rob Dube
You know, so one of the things I was thinking about was Image One. I'm not as involved anymore, but now I get to watch from the sidelines, so to speak, and watch them and their relationship with money because they're looking at the balance sheet, they're looking at the income statement, the net profit, and where some people feel comfortable putting chips in and other people feel like it's too much.
00:06:26 - 00:06:41
Rob Dube
And yeah, there's some business strategy around that for sure. But I actually think, and I'm curious what you think because you have way more experience dealing with people on this, is I also wonder sometimes, is that somebody's relationship with money that's showing up?
00:06:41 - 00:07:06
Rob Dube
What does that maybe potentially say about how they grew up with money, whether there was a lack of it or they had somebody important in their life that was a big spender and always gambling and seemed like they were living on top of the world? And then that comes around to how you're making business decisions, which may not be wise. Who knows?
00:07:06 - 00:07:30
Gino Wickman
Yeah. And so again, the short answer, I immediately shot back is hell yes. It's all about who they are, how they were raised, what's in them. And I just look at it as risk tolerance in terms of the spectrum there. And so if you're an engineer or an accountant, or you were raised by engineers and accountants and it's in you, you're going to err on the side of being more conservative.
00:07:30 - 00:07:57
Gino Wickman
And that's going to show up if you're in a business and you have some fiscal responsibility, just like if you're an entrepreneur or you were raised by entrepreneurs and you were surrounded by high risk tolerance, which is the way I grew up, that's going to show up in your business life, especially if you have responsibility for financial decisions in the business. So that's absolutely ingrained in you, good, bad, or indifferent. And that's what makes us who we are.
00:07:58 - 00:08:13
Rob Dube
So let me ask you this. What's something that you get annoyed about with money spending that it isn't about how much it is? It's not about I can't afford it. It's about that just annoys me.
00:08:14 - 00:08:36
Gino Wickman
Well, the first thing that comes to mind is my father-in-law. So I don't have my example yet, and then I will have my example. Pretty wealthy guy, but the heating bill, like he was so, and leaving lights on, the electric bill. He was so obsessed about those two things. It was comical to watch. So for what that's worth.
00:08:37 - 00:09:00
Rob Dube
I mean, for me, my thing is, I don't know if this changes in the future, but it's been my whole life. It's cars. You know, it's like I don't think no matter how much money I make or have, there's like a threshold. Like I don't get why someone would buy a $250,000 car. So that's where I become frugal.
00:09:00 - 00:09:30
Rob Dube
While I will go on very expensive vacations, but somehow in my brain, car. So my gray Ford Expedition, I'm on number six in the last 25 years. I buy it, I drive it to a hundred thousand miles, I trade it in, I buy a new one. And it's like, that's my threshold. Just kind of low key. So we've never gone down the car road where we feel like we need a Lamborghini or a Ferrari or a race car. I just, that's my thing.
00:09:30 - 00:09:42
Gino Wickman
Yeah. Okay. So I get it. And I love to hear certain words you're saying. Like low key. You know, every hundred thousand miles is a certain kind of something that makes you feel okay about it.
00:09:43 - 00:10:12
Rob Dube
You know, for myself, these subscriptions to all these streaming services. My wife loves all the different things. I don't watch that much TV. And I'm just like, there's so much. This is so ridiculous. I mean, it's such a rip-off. You know, she's just enjoying herself. She's entertained and that's important to her. And it's not like we have a riff about it, but I'm just like, oh God. And it has this little hold on me. And I just think it's interesting to witness that.
00:10:12 - 00:10:20
Rob Dube
So for you listening, I don't know, what are your holds and where are they coming from? I try to think about that. Where's it coming from? I'm curious.
00:10:20 - 00:10:46
Rob Dube
Now, you've shared openly in the book and in talks and all that. You almost went bankrupt two or three times or something like that. Now maybe you're in a different position. You are in a different position, maybe feeling a lot more secure. But I'm curious, when you think about those times now, what do you notice in your body about money when things come up?
00:10:46 - 00:11:06
Gino Wickman
Well, the two things that come up there are, you know, we're talking about how we're raised and how that shows up in our fiscal habits, right? And so my dad was not great with a budget. I grew up with parents that spent, mainly my dad. And so he would spend everything he had. And I was on the same path until age 31.
00:11:06 - 00:11:32
Gino Wickman
So I went broke three times by the age of 31. I could not see money in my bank account without spending it. If there was money, it needed to be spent. So the third time I went broke was the real stinger. That's the one that hurt because all of a sudden I've got a family now, a five-year-old and an eight-year-old, a house, all that kind of stuff. So when you say, what do I feel in my body? It's that something about that one changed everything for me.
00:11:33 - 00:12:01
Gino Wickman
I started living by a budget, started living within my means, turned all finances over to Kathy, my wife, which was a big deal for me to relinquish control. You know, so we talk about attachment. Oh my God. It's like I didn't want her to ever see it, to protect her from it. And I wanted to control it, make all the decisions. So that was a really big step, but it was transformational. And then finding a good financial person, discipline about socking money away.
00:12:01 - 00:12:29
Gino Wickman
So when you say, what do I feel? I feel a sense of calm is the first thing. I know now my indescribable, like I learned it at 31, like a benchmark, this mechanism that's like a governor that says, okay, you're crossing the line, scale back. It's kicking in. And so I think I'm healed. I think it's solved. I think those old ways are gone. I hope. So that's that.
00:12:30 - 00:12:49
Rob Dube
Just out of curiosity, let's just say someone very important to you in your life said, guess what, I'm buying a $250,000 car, like Kathy. Not that she would ever do that in a million years, but I'm just saying, like in this pretend world, I just wonder how that would screw with your head.
00:12:50 - 00:12:52
Gino Wickman
It would totally screw with my head. But at the same time.
00:12:52 - 00:12:53
Rob Dube
But you were healed.
00:12:53 - 00:13:10
Gino Wickman
Yeah. I mean, that's what she wanted, you know, that's what she's getting. So fortunately she's got the frugal gene from her dad. So we've never had a problem of her having spending issues. But you know, if that's what she wanted, I'd be racking my brain going, why? What the heck, do you need that?
00:13:10 - 00:13:23
Rob Dube
Exactly. Yeah. So, but at the same time, let's also not discount the fact that the gray Ford Expedition I drive is not an inexpensive car. So I'm not driving a used 20-year-old Mazda.
00:13:23 - 00:13:27
Gino Wickman
It's all relative.
00:13:23 - 00:13:27
Rob Dube
All relative.
00:13:27 - 00:14:36
Rob Dube
You know, money leads in many cases, and you might notice this, there's control around money when you have it, how you might control things. You talked about family dynamics. Sometimes the parents have the money and they're controlling the kids with it, proving themselves. You know, that's another thing that comes up with money. Are you trying to prove something? You know, did you grow up with modest means and now you want to show your parents or someone in your life that, look how I've made it? Attachments to things like, you know, I always think about for myself, something that I work through is, I have a nice home and I love it. And I think to myself sometimes when I'm meditating, it'll come up and I'll go, I'm so grateful for this house. And then I'll say, what if you had to give up the house? Then how would you be? Could you be okay? That's a relationship with money. Yeah. All right. Here's something else I want to ask you. I think many driven people have this belief that when they get to a certain threshold with money, everything's going to be okay. What are your thoughts on that?
00:14:36 - 00:14:57
Gino Wickman
I've talked about this and written about this in the past. And my experience is the threshold that I thought would make me feel safe and secure, once I hit it, I set a new one because it didn't. And then when I hit the next one, it didn't. And so I set a new one.
00:14:58 - 00:15:10
Gino Wickman
So what I believe in that and what I've experienced is it's not about the money. At the end of the day, it's not about the money. So this threshold that you think is going to give you peace, my guess for most people is it's not real and it's not going to give you that.
00:15:10 - 00:15:26
Gino Wickman
And so go inside to the thing that you're looking for to gain that security, that peace, whatever the word is for you. You know, when I have $2 million in the bank, I'm going to feel blank. Whatever that is, it ain't about the money. It's something going on inside of you.
00:15:26 - 00:15:41
Gino Wickman
As we've talked about, go back, chase it down to your childhood, heal it. And that money will be irrelevant. But I find I just kept raising the bar, raising the bar. There was no number and there was something else going on. And so the number's going to be what the number's going to be.
00:15:42 - 00:16:04
Rob Dube
All right. I'm going to share a Zen story here. A young man went to a Zen master and asked, how long will it take me to become enlightened? The master replied, 10 years. The man, eager and driven, said, what if I work really hard? What if I dedicate myself completely? The master paused and said, 20 years.
00:16:05 - 00:16:40
Rob Dube
So the more you're pushing and trying to get to this place, to force it so you'll be safe, it's worth investigating maybe for yourself. Grasping onto it becomes an obstacle. And we see this pattern with money. When I hit this number, then I'll be okay. When I get there, then I can relax. And I would throw out that you're fine the way you are. Work on your money, get to the places, enjoy every moment of it and all that kind of stuff. But if you don't get there, you're okay. And if you do get there, you're still okay. And everything in between.
00:16:40 - 00:16:53
Rob Dube
And the last thing I would say is just, there's no shame though. If you want $5 million in the bank and you think you're relatively healthy and you don't think it's an ego thing and you don't think it's a trauma-related thing, there's no shame in that.
00:16:53 - 00:17:00
Gino Wickman
And there's also no shame. I know people with $5 million, $20 million, $100 million, half a billion. There's no shame in any of that.
00:17:00 - 00:17:09
Rob Dube
You know, that's where I get concerned is when there's judgment around it. Just as long as it's healthy. And for most of them, it's just the number is what it is. So don't feel bad if you want a big number.
00:17:09 - 00:17:12
Gino Wickman
Healthy.
00:17:11 - 00:17:12
Rob Dube
Healthy. I love that.
00:17:12 - 00:17:14
Gino Wickman
Anything else? We've said it all.
00:17:14 - 00:17:22
Rob Dube
We've said it all. All right. Thank you for joining us and we will see you next time. And as always, stay focused and much love.
00:17:23 - 00:17:37
Gino Wickman
Thank you for listening in today. We truly appreciate you taking the time to spend with us. And please tune in for the next episode. Until then, we wish you all the best in freeing your True Self. Stay focused and much love.
