Shed & Shine â Duo Episode: Still Driven, But Less Attached
00:00:00 - 00:00:11
Gino Wickman
To be meaningless is a breakthrough, but a mindfuck because that's like, "Hey everybody, look what I did." When that domino finally falls, you are free.
00:00:24 - 00:00:31
Rob Dube
Hello everyone, my name is Rob Dube, and I am here with Gino Wickman. Gino, what's happening?
00:00:32 - 00:00:34
Gino Wickman
Dube! You're happening.
00:00:35 - 00:00:40
Rob Dube
I love the sound of that, by the way. When you leave me a message for years, you've been saying that.
00:00:40 - 00:00:42
Gino Wickman
30 years. No, I'm not 30, but 25 years at least.
00:00:43 - 00:00:49
Rob Dube
And we do voice texting a lot. You start everyone and it's just like, "Hmm." It's just so beautiful.
00:00:50 - 00:01:23
Rob Dube
Gino, I call this episode still driven, but less attached. So I was thinking about this idea of attachment and being driven, and I got to wondering about the many driven people that are attached to things like results, validation, attention that they get, or maybe even control. Then I wondered if driven people realized what they are giving up in their lives with these attachments, maybe some peace, maybe some ease, maybe they're harming relationships.
00:01:24 - 00:01:36
Rob Dube
So in a way, I wonder if there's a belief that these attachments are actually what are keeping them sharp. Like if they let go of their desired outcomes, something won't be right in their life.
00:01:36 - 00:01:53
Rob Dube
Now, what I've seen, both personally and in the deep work that I do with clients, is that attachment is often fear-based. We write about that in Shine, Discovery Number Two. All decisions, emotions, feelings, and thoughts are made from love or fear, heart or ego.
00:01:53 - 00:02:22
Rob Dube
And by the way, this is where the 10 Disciplines can get pretty useful. Disciplines like be still and know thyself create this awareness, and 10, your thinking helps take away your attachment to short-term outcomes. So this isn't about doing less or being less driven. It's about becoming aware, aware of your fear and these attachments that you have, and start redirecting them to love so that your drive comes from a more grounded and authentic place.
00:02:22 - 00:02:26
Rob Dube
So as I always like to ask, what's coming up for you, Gino?
00:02:26 - 00:02:30
Gino Wickman
Oh, there's a lot coming up on this one. You're hitting on one of my hot buttons right now.
00:02:30 - 00:02:30
Rob Dube
No kidding.
00:02:31 - 00:02:35
Gino Wickman
So I am actually writing a new book. You are aware of this.
00:02:36 - 00:02:36
Rob Dube
I heard.
00:02:36 - 00:02:39
Gino Wickman
I'm a few months in. You actually test read it.
00:02:39 - 00:02:40
Rob Dube
I did.
00:02:40 - 00:03:16
Gino Wickman
A lot of energy around it. And in a nutshell, it's all about detaching from the extremes of life. Okay? And so I'm going to explain this in more detail, but I want to add a couple of things to your laundry list of attachments. Let's add to that people, other people. We are attached to the people in our life. Let's add to that possessions. We are attached to our possessions. And then let's add the biggie, and that is our identities. We are attached to our identities or our lives.
00:03:16 - 00:03:45
Gino Wickman
So just to throw more in the mix, the reason it's a hot button and the idea behind the book and why it's coming up for me in such a big way is, again, it's all about detaching. Like I said, from these extremes in life and the pendulum of life is always swinging. And to the degree we can detach ourselves from all of that and just observe, become aware, and notice what's going on, it will be transformational.
00:03:45 - 00:04:29
Gino Wickman
So it's everything that we've been talking about. There's no question. But I want to give a couple of little nuggets here on this subject because I use the word detach, and I purposely use that because it's the opposite of attach. But detach sometimes sounds negative, or it could be dangerous because the extreme... So let's look at those two polarities in the spectrum of attaching and detaching. Detaching can come off as being aloof or abdicating something or like in a very unhealthy way, just kind of saying, "Fuck you." That's not what we're talking about.
00:04:29 - 00:05:31
Gino Wickman
It is possible to detach from all of your attachments. Rob gave you a list. I gave you a list, while still staying fully engaged, fully focused, fully aware, and fully conscious. And so what we're talking about, this is where I want to kind of set the stage for this, it's this ability to step back and observe your life and everything going on in it. And so the best example coming to mind right now is this enlightened woman was sharing how when she gets in an argument and somebody's like yelling at her, she just gets such joy from it because she just detaches from... Because when somebody's yelling at you, you know it's their issue. But she in her head says, "Angry person yelling." And when I heard that, I was like, "Oh my God, you just changed my life."
00:05:31 - 00:06:18
Gino Wickman
So now let's apply that to, you know, control freak, hanging on. We can go through all of it. But think about the ability of somebody yelling at you for you to completely detach from that while still staying fully engaged and listening and loving and caring for them. When 99.9999999999% of us are incapable of doing that because we are going to feel something. And the idea is to not feel anything, just stay engaged. And so that little argument example, you can apply that to every example that we talked about. And so I just want to set the stage with that, and I'm really excited to dive deep into that.
00:06:18 - 00:06:20
Gino Wickman
So what's coming up for you, Mr. Dube?
00:06:20 - 00:06:34
Rob Dube
Well, a question I wanted to go through with you is I wanted to take you back if you're willing to go there. And if you're not, that's fine. But when you look back at your own journey, where have you noticed these attachments showing up, even when things were going well?
00:06:34 - 00:06:38
Gino Wickman
Yeah. So we're going to have to go back and forth because nothing's coming up fast.
00:06:38 - 00:06:42
Rob Dube
Let me start. How about that? Then something will come up for you right on your back.
00:06:42 - 00:06:43
Gino Wickman
Worst case, I'll steal yours.
00:06:44 - 00:07:13
Rob Dube
I was thinking about when I was running my previous company, which I still own, Image One. And I was so attached to outcomes, so attached to them. And you talked about people earlier. I was so attached to people. For example, if someone left our company, I would feel horrible for like weeks about it. I would feel so depressed. Like it was... I took it so personally.
00:07:13 - 00:07:30
Rob Dube
I was attached to those people. I just couldn't understand how could they leave this company that I built? And it's such a great place. I'm so attached to this company. I'm so attached to the idea that it's such a great place. And it was just all so unhealthy.
00:07:30 - 00:07:53
Rob Dube
I noticed when I had successes, in many ways, it increased my fear because I'd worry about going backwards. So then I was on a treadmill. So I was attached to more and more success because I didn't want to go backwards. So I was foregoing peace for some later time in my life. So that's my example.
00:07:53 - 00:09:10
Gino Wickman
You jargoned three things loose, Rob. Good work. You jargoned three things loose. So the first one starts with business because that's where you started. And it's me being the EOS guy. You know, and I would actually use that term. So after selling EOS Worldwide and again, beautifully having no responsibility in that business, not one I owed to the day after closing, I was still attached to being the EOS guy. And I would say that for years. You know, so I would say, "I sold it. Don't have any involvement, but I'm still the EOS guy." And like I felt the need to say that for God knows what reason. And it was all about their judgment, whoever they were. So I just let that go. I'm probably a year or two ago. It took me six, seven years. And I believe I have truly fully let go. Now, I may still be in denial, and there might be one or two more percent to go because I'm proud of that experience. I'm proud of what was built there, but it's now in the hands of smarter, better people than me to take it to the next level. And boy, have they taken it to the next level. So that's one.
00:09:10 - 00:10:05
Gino Wickman
The second one is, you know, you brought this up. So in the long-form interview that we did for the audiobook of Shine, I believe that's where it is. But you interviewed the people in my life. And when you interviewed my mom, she shared how I would keep all of my toys in a box at nine years old. Okay? And so this is another great example. And I write about this in the new book because I realize how dysfunctional that was. So it was a great story. You know, it was such a great story. But it's like, ouch, when I realize what's behind it because not only would I keep my toys in a box, I would protect it from the world. And nobody was allowed to touch my toys out of fear that they were going to break it or take it or something. I don't know. But I was so protective of my toys. So just another example of attachment.
00:10:05 - 00:10:51
Gino Wickman
And then the third one that came up is my one and five-star ratings on Amazon. So both sides, you know, so it's like a one-star rating. I mean, in the first... So this goes back 18 years, but in the first couple of years of publishing Traction, I would be distraught at a one-star rating. It's like, why? How? I would obsess about it. And just as quickly, a five-star rating would make me feel good. You know, and so the beauty today, sitting here today, one-star, five-star. It would suck if all of a sudden 90% were one-stars. It would wake me up that I need to work on my content. Fortunately, most of them are five-stars, but no attachment to either one of those things. So there's three things that you jargoned loose.
00:10:51 - 00:11:26
Rob Dube
Those are so good. Now, I want to talk about Discovery Number Two from the book Shine, decisions are made from love or fear. And maybe just, do they change the way you look at attachment to outcomes? Like I was thinking about it, does fear create this urgency instead of just allowing things to flow? You know, when I think about love, I think it's more trusting. It's like patient. It's this knowing that with proper effort, the outcome will be exactly as it should be. And I was just thinking about that and wondering what comes up for you on that.
00:11:27 - 00:11:39
Gino Wickman
Yeah. What it made me think of was to go back through each one of my three examples. And the EOS guy thing was... So again, it was from fear, fear of losing my identity. I was the EOS guy.
00:11:39 - 00:12:05
Gino Wickman
You know, the toys, it was fear of somebody taking something from me. You know, it was like a protection, like a jealousy. And then the one-star ratings, I think there were two big fears in that. It was certainly reputation and identity, but it was almost like a self-worth thing as well. So I don't know if I'm answering it, but those are some of the fear-based roots of what was going on with that.
00:12:05 - 00:12:08
Rob Dube
Yeah. And I wonder, like what does it look like when it's coming from love?
00:12:09 - 00:12:33
Gino Wickman
Yeah. And so now all of a sudden it'll be a crude shift. But it's like, you know, when I was taught by a therapist in my 20s, which never stuck until five years ago, it is fuck them. You know, so it's like all this judgment. You know, when you can really, truly from your soul say, fuck them and really mean that, it's like your life will change, which just simply means all that judgment doesn't matter. It's so irrelevant.
00:12:33 - 00:12:57
Gino Wickman
And so when it's coming from love, from the inside out, it's like, you know, I am full. I do love myself. I am just me. And so from that stems, you know, no need for an identity, which the identity thing is so big. Like the reason I brought identity into the conversation, that's the last thing to fall. Okay?
00:12:57 - 00:13:43
Gino Wickman
And like even more important than that, your life. Like we are attached to our life. So I have been teaching the world how to live the EOS life and how to live your ideal life and live by these 10 Disciplines. And I hold them up as, see what I did? See the life I created? For that, this is going to sound weird, to be meaningless is a breakthrough, but a mindfuck because that's like, hey, everybody, look what I did. When that domino finally falls, you are free. I am free. So that one's still a work in progress, but it's a quantum leap from where it was eight years ago. And I don't even know if I'm answering your question because I'm just, I'm like just riffing.
00:13:43 - 00:13:52
Rob Dube
I love it. All right. So now I was trying to think a little bit practically. Discipline number four is be still. How can that be useful with attachment?
00:13:52 - 00:14:17
Rob Dube
Well, I think when you take time to be still, as we recommend in the book, when you get quiet, you can feel into your body on things. You can start to notice like, I have this goal to hit a certain milestone in the company or in my career, and I'm feeling like a lot of angst around it. You're getting really attached to it. So you might say, is this what I really desire? Is this what I'm really on this earth to do?
00:14:17 - 00:14:59
Rob Dube
Just listening deeply, noticing your body's reaction to it, noticing what you're feeling, and you know, maybe letting go of your attachment doesn't mean you're still not moving towards that. That's where 10-year thinking, Discipline number one, could come into play. It doesn't mean you're not still moving in that direction. You're just not so attached to it. And with the attachment, with the release of the attachment, or the detachment, I suppose, as you've said earlier, you get more clarity. And when you get more clarity, you have more space in your mind. And with more space in your mind, I truly believe you'll make better decisions and you'll end up exactly where you're supposed to be. So any thoughts coming up for you on that?
00:14:59 - 00:15:06
Gino Wickman
Yeah. So that prompts one thought. And I'm going to urge we end on this thought. But again, I'm going to shut up and let you say whatever you want.
00:15:06 - 00:15:08
Rob Dube
We end when I say we end.
00:15:08 - 00:15:30
Gino Wickman
Yes, sir. Sorry. I have a new favorite word. And I feel like I say that every freaking episode, but it's this word, notice, notice, notice, just simply notice. And it's what this new book is all about. And it's one of my favorite words in the book. And so everything you just described is for us to notice.
00:15:30 - 00:15:54
Gino Wickman
Within notice is detach, observe, be aware, be conscious, stay engaged. And so notice says it is stepping back, letting go of it all, and noticing, oh, angry person yelling. Oh, he's trying to control that. Oh, so it's just noticing everything going on.
00:15:54 - 00:16:21
Gino Wickman
And so you led into this with stillness. Stillness practices allow you to notice. They heighten your ability to notice. If you really and truly practice stillness, you should be completely detached in that stillness. And in that state of stillness, whatever form, you will notice more of this stuff that you're hanging onto, and it will help you to let go and detach.
00:16:21 - 00:16:24
Rob Dube
That's so good. I have a question for you.
00:16:24 - 00:16:25
Gino Wickman
I thought we were done.
00:16:26 - 00:16:28
Rob Dube
No, this one's important. Did you cheat in school?
00:16:28 - 00:16:29
Gino Wickman
Did I cheat?
00:16:29 - 00:16:35
Rob Dube
Yeah. Did you cheat in school? Were you good at looking over at other people's notes? Can I just listen?
00:16:35 - 00:16:35
Gino Wickman
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:16:35 - 00:16:40
Rob Dube
Okay. Just let me go. This is my last question around notice.
00:16:40 - 00:16:40
Gino Wickman
Yeah.
00:16:40 - 00:16:42
Rob Dube
Yeah. Were you cheating? Were you looking at my notes?
00:16:43 - 00:16:43
Gino Wickman
Oh, really?
00:16:43 - 00:16:44
Rob Dube
Yeah. I'm not kidding.
00:16:44 - 00:16:47
Gino Wickman
Come on. The word notice is on there. Stop.
00:16:48 - 00:16:52
Rob Dube
What would you like to invite listeners to notice this week if they want to remain still?
00:16:53 - 00:16:56
Gino Wickman
Well, by the way, on record is that I don't think I did much cheating.
00:16:57 - 00:16:59
Rob Dube
Well, you cheated today. You were looking at my notes.
00:16:59 - 00:17:04
Gino Wickman
I was born with an integrity bug. I did some stealing, but I didn't do much cheating.
00:17:05 - 00:17:07
Rob Dube
You were born with an integrity bug and you were stealing?
00:17:07 - 00:17:14
Gino Wickman
I was definitely a derelict. It was innocent kind of stealing, but anyway.
00:17:14 - 00:17:15
Rob Dube
You can justify anything.
00:17:16 - 00:17:17
Gino Wickman
That's interesting you bring that up.
00:17:18 - 00:17:40
Rob Dube
For another episode. But if you walk away with two nuggets from this episode, it is angry person yelling and fuck them. All right. Thank you all for joining us. And we'll look forward to seeing you next time. And in the meantime, stay focused and much love.
00:17:41 - 00:17:54
Gino Wickman
Thank you for listening in today. We truly appreciate you taking the time to spend with us. And please tune in for the next episode. Until then, we wish you all the best in freeing your True Self. Stay focused and much love.
