Gino Wickman (00:00):
Imagine when you know you're wrong and you can laugh at being wrong, and you're willing to be wrong. So humility is the ability to be wrong.
Rob Dube (00:22):
Hello, everyone. My name is Rob Dube, and I am here with Gino Wickman. Gino, great to see you today.
Gino Wickman (00:30):
You as well, my friend.
Rob Dube (00:31):
All right, so here's what we're going to talk about today, humility.
Gino Wickman (00:35):
Ooh.
Rob Dube (00:36):
I think that's Discipline Number 10, be humble. Is that right?
Gino Wickman (00:39):
Something like that, yeah.
Rob Dube (00:42):
So why is this coming up? Well, at our last True Self Mastermind, someone asked, to the group, "I'm questioning whether I'm truly humble." And most of the people in our Mastermind, I have to say, are pretty damn humble.
Gino Wickman (00:55):
That's for sure.
Rob Dube (00:56):
So we ended up having a really interesting conversation about it. So something else came up, where one member said they liked being recognized, and then they were asking like, "Is that pride that's sneaking in? And is that humility?" So I remember one thing I shared with them was that if you're doing something in order to be recognized, then there's probably a lack of humility. But if your intent is pure, if you're serving, if you're creating, and especially if you're leading from your True Self, and recognition comes in, then that's humility. And enjoy it, enjoy the recognition, but do your best to not have it inflate your ego or define your worth. So why is humility so confusing for people? So I don't know, let's just have a discussion about it and see where it goes. So what's coming up for you?
Gino Wickman (01:47):
So there are a few things coming up. First, when I think about being humble, a couple almost like examples of, when you do this, you're probably being humble. So the first one that came up is if you're able to laugh at yourself. So driven people, we're typically type A. We're out there, we're well-known, out in front. And so sometimes we create a facade, and we're not really good at laughing at ourselves because the facade doesn't allow for that. And so what I've learned recently, so this one is 6 to 12 months old, but when I'm able to just laugh at myself, that, to me, is like a litmus test of humility. And when I can't laugh at myself, so for some reason I'm trying to protect myself, or I didn't find it that funny, that's the other side of it. And that's kind of arrogance creeping in. I hope that makes sense. And I'll say a couple other things. The other thing is the ability to laugh in a debate, an argument, a passionate discussion, where you're literally vehemently disagreeing with each other.
(03:09):
And I think about friends, family, my spouse, I mean the whole gamut. And what I'm realizing more and more is that I'm able to laugh and smile in that. And about five years ago, there was this great quote on a beer bottle, and it said, "Don't you hate the moment in an argument when you realize you're wrong?" So here you are in this fierce debate. And so that made me laugh that hard when I saw it. And so to keep pulling this thread. So just imagine that ability, but now imagine when you know you're wrong and you can laugh at being wrong, and you're willing to be wrong. So humility is the ability to be wrong. And so I just think about myself, and I'm just becoming more and more comfortable being wrong. It's like, I'm not going to say I love it, but it just doesn't bother me. And so you can follow that thread, the ability to laugh at it, the ability to laugh at yourself, the ability to laugh in a debate, the ability to be wrong, that's all humility. So that's the first thing that's coming up in my mind.
Rob Dube (04:17):
That's good.
Gino Wickman (04:18):
I'll throw it back to you.
Rob Dube (04:19):
Yeah. One of the things I was thinking about was people with strong personalities. So you talked about just a moment ago, people being out front, the facade. Some people can really command a room, and those in that room can sometimes perceive that as somebody who has a lack of humility. Is that true to you?
Gino Wickman (04:46):
Oh, man, what a great question. Well, that was the point I made about being out in front. So I'm reminded of the time, and I may have shared this many episodes ago, but it's so appropriate here now because of how different I react to this, I'm reminded at the time I had a hole in my sweater, right here on my elbow, and I didn't know. There's no way to see that on the sweater. And so I'm in a session with the leadership team and somebody was just bold enough to say, "Hey, you know have a hole in your sweater?" And I'm like, "Oh, my God, I see that." And I literally blushed, I turned red. And this goes back, again, it is maybe 10 years ago, but to be so embarrassed by something so simple. And it's like today if that would've happened, I would just laugh at it. So I don't know if that's indirectly answering your question, but ask it again, and let's dig, because there's something powerful.
Rob Dube (05:44):
Well, no, I was thinking, you do a lot of speaking, and when you're on stage, you command a room. And there could be thousands of people in the room and some percentage of those people might... And I've heard some of them. I know you're okay with me saying that. "When he's up there, it just seems like his ego..." Or his this or that. So there's something that they're perceiving that isn't true about you, because I know you to be humble. And people, I do think as part of when we were in the Mastermind, I do believe that was something that some people were struggling with. Now, they may not be giving talks to thousands of people, but maybe to their teams, and they may be feeling that same kind of energy.
Gino Wickman (06:27):
But what I wonder in that... So 20 years ago, that would've bothered me so bad. And I would sit here and think about, "How do I come off as less arrogant on stage, because that person said that?" When what I've learned is, that's their stuff, I'm just being me. As long as I feel like I'm being real and authentic, then I think I'm doing my part. I can't control what everybody thinks. So I think the same thing applies to, like you said, that driven person might just be in a meeting, talking to eight people around a conference table, we can't control what they think of us. That's judgment, and that's letting go of that. There's just some pain from the past that's coming up when that happens, and that's when we just got to check ourselves. Are we staying humble? Are we staying grounded? And if I truly feel like I'm being real and authentic in myself, I can't control how they react.
Rob Dube (07:27):
I love that. I think for people who are addressing groups on a smaller scale, or even on a large scale, I think, again, I was doing a lot of thinking about you during this particular one, and it's how you're using your gifts. You all have a gift out there, and how are you using it? Are you using it to try to seem like you're something that you're not? So you're not really using your gifts. Your gifts are when you're rooted in your presence, and when you're not coming from ego, and when you're lifting people up through your presence, which is what you do in your talks. People come away feeling energized. They've come away feeling connected.
Gino Wickman (08:12):
I'll share something else. You're prompting with that whole analogy of being in front of an audience. Two things. First is, I'm reminded of how obsessed I would get 10 and 20 and 30 years ago. I could do a talk and I could get all nines and tens, and there'd be like one six, and the six would make me crazy. I mean, it would drive me bonkers. I would obsess about the six, which makes no sense. There's 99 great ratings and there's 0.1. Two is, and this is the most important message that gives me peace, and for everyone out there, is, and so my dad, who is a Hall of Fame speaker in the National Speakers Association, would talk about the audience. And he would talk about in an audience, 30% are there to be entertained, 30% are there to be motivated, 30% are there to learn something, and 10% you'll never please. In other words, you just can't please them. And so that's helpful. So you're not going to please them all.
(09:10):
And so with that, I think that helps calm us down and not take that blow, and keep ourselves humble. And just know that you're going to take some lumps and you're not perfect. And so hopefully that helps.
Rob Dube (09:21):
And I love that. I had that same advice from one of my mentors, by the way, Ari Weinzweig, who gave me that same advice many years ago. We talked on the Mastermind about the feeling, when you like to be recognized, that feels good. And I think you may have even mentioned, "I like to be recognized. I like that. It makes me feel..." So how do you reconcile humility with that? I mean, when you're speaking to a team, a big group, whatever, and people are feeling your message, feeling it, coming up to you, saying, "That was so good, thank you for that." How do you use that energy so it doesn't turn into a head swelling?
Gino Wickman (10:06):
Yeah. Well, what I'm thinking about is, first of all, what I shared in the Mastermind was not that I liked recognition, it was advice somebody gave me, that I realized I liked recognition. And what she said to me is, she said, "Your ego likes recognition." She said, "You like recognition, and so why don't you accept that?" She said, "You accept that recognition, and then..." her way of saying it was, "Just give it back to God, then just be grateful for it." And so what that does for me, and what that tells me is, it's like validating. So it is nice to hear that compliment, or whatever that accolade is, but I don't dwell on it. And when I really looked into that, I think where it's dangerous is if you are feeding on it, if you need it, if you're seeking it, that's where I think you're crossing a line. And so where I am in my life is, I don't need it, I'm not looking for it. And so I just accept the compliment, and then give it back to God, and just say, "Thank You for this gift."
(11:14):
And so I don't know if that helps and that explains it, but that's how I've learned to deal with it. But I do enjoy it. I do appreciate it. I am grateful for it. So in there is kind of how I'm dealing with it.
Rob Dube (11:28):
Did you ever have a time in your life where receiving that kind of feedback was hard for you?
Gino Wickman (11:33):
Oh, for sure. Yeah. Oh, my goodness.
Rob Dube (11:35):
So what would you do then?
Gino Wickman (11:37):
Well, let's think. Let me take myself all the way back to that.
Rob Dube (11:42):
Well, as you think, I feel like I would deflect it all the time. And someone gave me advice once, "Stop deflecting. You never accept praise. What's going on with you?" I had to really take a deep dive into that.
Gino Wickman (11:54):
Yeah, so that's the two sides to it. When I think about, if I take myself back to 25 years ago when I started standing in front of audiences, it was dual sided, because absolutely I would say, "Oh, no, no, no." While at the same time, prior to that, I'm like, "God, I hope they love this. I hope I hear great things." Back then my ego really needed it. It needed that validation because of the insecurities. And so ironically how badly I needed it to validate myself, while at the same time going, "Oh, no, no, no, no." So yeah, it's a very different world now where I accept it freely, and I don't need it. I don't need it. Now I just put the message out there and it either resonates or it doesn't. And I'm just trying to be the best version of myself when I deliver that message.
Rob Dube (12:45):
At some of the conferences that I've been at, mainly at the EOS, there's many people that want to talk to you after, and many just want to thank you for what you had to say. So when you get that coming in, do you have a microsecond process to give it back to God? Yeah, I don't know, I'm just kind of curious.
Gino Wickman (13:07):
No, I think it comes back to what we've talked about several times in these episodes, is just saying thank you. So it's not always verbal, sometimes it's just going like this. Sometimes it's just various ways of just being grateful. Thinking it, saying it, feeling it. So it's never this one way that I do it every single time.
Rob Dube (13:28):
Someone taught me to put my hand on my heart.
Gino Wickman (13:30):
Yeah, that's beautiful. That works.
Rob Dube (13:33):
In the book Shine, one of the people that shared a story with us, he shared that he used a title, and I don't remember the exact title, but it was something like Chief Fixer, or something like that. And he felt in his role at the company, as the founder, as the owner, I can't remember if he was the visionary, that his job was to fix all the problems. And where's humility playing there? And for somebody like that person, who has since changed and is completely different, how does that person really start recognizing there's lack of humility there. You think you're the person that can fix it all.
Gino Wickman (14:17):
Yeah. And furthermore, I don't know if you said it exactly this way, but what he said to all of his people, he says, "When you have a problem, give it to me." He created a monster. So they're just all defaulting to him. So that's obviously what he needed at the time. And like you said, he's a different person now in terms of how he handles that. So I think that's all ego, when you're saying, "Give me all of your problems." And I don't think I have this perfect concise, tangible answer for you, and so I'm going to give you a very vague one that I hope answers it. And let's dig if it's not clear, but it's, that particular person, in the place that they are in, as long as they are being their true authentic selves, as long as they have delegated and elevated all $25 hour work, and they've got people that are carrying their weight and responsible for their issues, the things that fall to that person will naturally fall to that person that they need to get involved in. And there's your answer.
(15:13):
So it's not this perfect tangible... I'm kind of backing into it from a standpoint of, as long as they're being their authentic self, then the right issues are going to come to them, and the other issues are for everyone else.
Rob Dube (15:23):
Do you think people that get into business are oftentimes not humble people, and that they come in and they really want to be the fixer, the person who can handle all the problems, because there's actually something deeper going on, like they have something to prove?
Gino Wickman (15:40):
Well, I feel like you're crossing two thoughts, and I'm having trouble correlating arrogance and humility to what I think is the bigger issue in that. And that is, absolutely, most driven entrepreneurs, business owners, visionaries, when they start the business, take responsibility for everything, and they are the firefighters for everything. Whether that's humble or arrogant, I wouldn't attach that to that as much as they feel like they need to be the heroes. And we can call that arrogance, and we can call that not being humble, because then what happens, at some point in the next 5, 10, 20, 30 years, depending on when they learn this, they realize that they can't be the firefighter for everything. And they are burning out and they're becoming exhausted, which humbles them. So I am just coming at it from a different direction. I would not say all business owners are arrogant when they start their first business. I can't apply that theory to that. Either they're just full of piss and vinegar and want to solve every problem that comes up.
Rob Dube (16:52):
Yeah, yeah. Last question on this, when you were coming up with your list of 10 Disciplines, which I think was a longer list than 10, was be humble a no-brainer one for you? And then how did it end up being Number 10?
Gino Wickman (17:10):
Yeah, yeah. Well, they are in a specific order as best I could put them in an order. There's a couple that I could debate to my death. I could have flipped, should have flipped, but they were coin tosses. So I think there were a total of somewhere between 12 and 14, I think the number was 13, and humble and gratitude were the two that were battling for the Number 10 position. And I chose humble because I believe gratitude is the root of humility. And if we practice gratitude, humility is a byproduct. So again, going back and forth, I mean that one was a coin toss. If the wind blew a different way, gratitude, be grateful, would've been Discipline Number 10. But again, I still, in my heart, feel humility wins out. And so again, gratitude is just simply the root of humility.
Rob Dube (18:08):
Yeah. Good. Good. All right. Any last thoughts on humility?
Gino Wickman (18:12):
Yeah. This thought I'm having, and I don't know who I'm talking to out there, but it's for someone out there listening, and it's where we kind of started, and that is people's reaction to you, which can sometimes hurt. And I'm speaking from experience. And again, it's all about this. And again, that humility that I've learned kind of helps keep me on the ground and accepting that I can't please them all. What I've learned is, now that I am relatively well-known out there in the business world, and when I speak, I can't win, I can't win. And it's like I tried so hard to win them all over. So it's like anywhere I go where there's multiple people, somebody's pissed off. It's that old saying, "Never meet your heroes, never meet your idols." Or something like that.
(19:12):
So everybody has a preconceived notion of me, and I am a pretty simple guy, and I am what I am. And so it's so freeing to just be me. And there's still pain. Even as I share this, there's still pain. It drives me crazy why it has to be that way, but it is what it is. And so any of you out there that are becoming celebrities, it's a blessing and a curse. Make sure you're tough enough to handle the fact that you are not going to please them all. They're not all going to like you, and that's just the nature of the beast.
Rob Dube (19:47):
And for those that aren't celebrities, like myself, then you have a team and it's going to be the same dynamic. Say you got 20 people, 30, 40, 50, 100, whatever, it's going to be the same thing. We kind of alluded to that earlier. But a fun exercise, you just made me think about it, and I'm surprised I didn't put it in my notes, is the humble/arrogant exercise, where on one end of the continuum you write Humble, and then you draw a line, and then on the other end it's Arrogant. And then you ask people to draw a line where you're closest to. And ask five people closest to you in your life. And this is in the book Shine as well, if you want to reference it. And you get some pretty remarkable results. I've had so many people that I've coached or worked with, who come back and were very surprised about the results, meaning they thought they were more humble than they were.
Gino Wickman (20:36):
Yeah, for sure. And then the other thought I had too, with this point I'm making about, as you become more well-known... And to your point, let's pretend you have 10 employees or 50 employees or 100, or you're reaching audiences of hundreds or thousands, or whatever the number is, if my dad's math is right, you're not going to please 1 out of 10. And so if you have 10 employees, 1 out of 10 ain't going to like you so much. All of a sudden, if you have 100, there's 10. If there's 1,000, there's 100. If it's 100,000... If it's a million, there are 100,000 people that aren't going to like you, so learn to get good at that. Learn to stay humble around that. So for what that math is worth, that's a little bit-
Rob Dube (21:14):
I love that. That's fun. All right, everyone, thank you, as always, for joining us, and we'll see you next time. In the meantime, stay focused, and much love.
Speaker 3 (21:25):
Thank you for listening in today. We truly appreciate you taking the time to spend with us, and please tune in for the next episode. Until then, we wish you all the best in freeing your True Self. Stay focused and much love.
