ob Dube (00:21):
Hello, everyone. My name is Rob Dube and I am here with Gino Wickman. Gino, good to see you.
Gino Wickman (00:28):
Well, good to see you, Rob.
Rob Dube (00:30):
In this episode, we are going to explore the emotional roller coaster of entrepreneurship. Is there such a thing? Please. Okay, I'm going to start things off as I normally do to get your gears turning. First, I'd like to be sure we touch on the importance of self-awareness, energy management, and finding peace amid the chaos of building a business. And I speak from experience when I say it doesn't need to be chaos. We have a choice and we can be intentional not to allow that to happen. You're still going to have a million issues. You're going to lose a key employee, a big customer, and majorly mess something up along the way, but it does not need to be an emotional roller coaster.
(01:18):
Gino, what's coming up for you?
Gino Wickman (01:20):
Well, the first thing that comes up is the last thing I just got it down because you said something really profound there because, and I want to make sure I heard what you said and I want to say it a little bit different, but what I heard you say is the roller coaster is going to happen. I mean, building a business is a shit show. It's really hard and it's something I'm learning in my life. We don't have to be attached to the roller coaster. We don't have to attach ourselves to those ups and downs, and it gets to that synchronicity pocket where we can step back and float above the good and the bad times and not be so emotionally engaged and attached to what's going on. And so is that what I'm hearing you say?
Rob Dube (02:11):
Yeah, yeah.
Gino Wickman (02:11):
And I love how you said it and I didn't write down how you said it, but it's so important because we don't have to, however you said that. I said it my way, you said it your way, and it's not about, hopefully you'll find your words there, but we don't have to do that thing. It's all still going on. It's the same outer world experience. It's how you react, it's how you respond to those things going on that is the difference because the shit show is still going to happen. So let's float in this for a couple of minutes.
Rob Dube (02:48):
Yeah. So it's about self-awareness, energy management, finding peace amid this chaos because, again, just to restate it, the roller coaster's happening, but it doesn't need to be an emotional roller coaster. Okay? You're going to have your ups and downs. And so let me start with this, what do you believe is causing entrepreneurs to experience such intense emotional highs and lows?
Gino Wickman (03:14):
Well, I want to lead in by saying this, because I'm thinking about you now and I'm thinking about four years of us being partners roughly three or four years, and anytime it gets intense for you and I, or we're having a disagreement or we're having a partner issue, when I think back to the building of EOS worldwide, I rode that roller coaster like you wouldn't believe, man. It's like every up, every down, I'm like, I'm in there. I was so emotional. I was pretty darn emotionally intelligent, but I rode it. What's interesting about you in this last three to four years and observing you, when we're celebrating something really great or we're dealing with sheer hell, there's no emotion there. And it's like sometimes I'm like, "What the fuck, Rob? Would you shout or cry or do, show something?" But it is pretty impressive because there's just this steadiness. And what I've learned and realize is how much more steady I am because I'm elevating myself above the highs and lows and the roller coasters, ups and downs, and it's very profound and I've become much more peaceful. I believe I've learned a bit of that from you. And it's just amazing watching your piece, whether it's really intense or really good. So I just wanted to call that out.
Rob Dube (04:39):
I actually had what I remember to be a pivotal moment for me. It was our largest customer. They called us up one day and said, the dreaded words were doing an RFP, and it kind of came as a surprise. So what happened to me at that time, which was, I don't know, maybe 15 years ago, is I started to spiral and I went into a dark place about all the things that were going to go wrong. And fortunately, I had a stillness practice, Discipline number four, be still, and I got quiet. And over the time in dealing with this RFP and all the different dynamics that were going on, I came to the conclusion that this made no sense for me to be so emotionally involved. In other words, all I needed to do was show up and give proper effort. Nothing else was needed. If we were to lose the account, was that the end of my life? I mean, come on. No, it would be discomfort.
Gino Wickman (05:45):
And think of the energy you burned. That's the greatest return right there, is the amount of energy you save.
Rob Dube (05:55):
That's right.
Gino Wickman (05:55):
The amount of energy you don't burn. Oh, my God, it's so good.
Rob Dube (05:59):
And when I was able to let go, everything, I swear to you, it was like everything was crystal clear. No question that was coming my way was confusing anymore. And so, yes, to your point, the energy is cleared at that point and you do not have the same emotional attachment to it, but you can still give proper effort and win the deal or maybe you'll end up losing the deal and that's the way it was meant to be.
Gino Wickman (06:27):
Exactly. And if you had rode that rollercoaster, the outcome was going to be the same either way. So why attach yourself to all of that-
Rob Dube (06:35):
Exactly.
Gino Wickman (06:36):
... knowing the energy it save?
(06:38):
Another side of this, it's like what we just talked about is, again, the shit show's going to happen. The rollercoaster is going to be there. There's going to be ups and downs in business, ups and downs. As I like to say, six issues a day to solve. That is just business. And so what we've talked about is detaching ourselves from that so we're not burning so much energy and being emotionally attached to that. Now let's look at a different dimension of this, and that is passion. And so my discovery here and what I teach with entrepreneurs in the making and early stage entrepreneurs is you've got to know your passion because what happens on this entrepreneurial rollercoaster is when you get your kicked, and you will get your kicked often, the only thing that gets you back up when you get knocked down is passion, is to go back to the reason you're doing this. And so passion is vital.
(07:36):
And in that, so just to give an example for me and where I am is when times get tough, when I get my ass kicked, when I get knocked down, when I'm so passionate right now is to help driven entrepreneurs free their True Selves. And our goal is to free a million of them. And so when I get my ass kicked, what brings me back, my north star is the reality that that's why I'm doing this. And it motivates me, it picks me back up. And so for what that's worth, I just challenge everyone out there listening, do you really and truly know your passion? Why you're doing this? Why you get out of bed every morning and there's a wonderful exercise to help you determine that. And it's three questions. What are your three greatest successes? What are your three greatest failures? And what has life prepared you for? If you take 30 minutes, 60 minutes in a Starbucks and answer those three questions and write them out, out of that will come the answer for why you do this as it did for me when I did the exercise.
(08:40):
And so I just want to come back to this dimension and just say, if you don't know your passion, if you don't know why you're doing this, the first time you get knocked down, you are tapping out because there's nothing big enough to get you to get up and face this thing that the odds are so against you. What we're doing right now, you and I in business, the odds are so against us, it's fucking hard. So that's what keeps us going. And if you don't have that out there, you are going to give up at the first ass-whooping or the first down rollercoaster ride. So anyway, for what that's worth.
Rob Dube (09:18):
I mean, it's true, but this is a resilient group. Let's face it. I mean, the driven entrepreneurs, the leaders out there that we're talking to, they are awfully resilient. But one of the things I noticed is that they seem to have a propensity for these highs and lows in sticking on it emotionally. And that was something I got thinking about with our book Shine, the three discoveries, the first discovery being you are driven and noticing or knowing that this is a blessing and a curse. And I encourage you to check out that part of the book because it's all about how you manage it. It's all about how you manage your driven nature. Does anything come up for you on that?
Gino Wickman (10:00):
The only thing that comes up, because again, now we're talking about these dimensions, and so yes, the driven being thrives on this kind of stuff and pushes through this kind of stuff, and certainly knowing your passion is a thread of that drive. But what I would ask is, because I don't know that this is so much where you're going, but understand that you're driven, assuming you are, and like you said, understand the pros and the cons, the good side and the dark side of that, but also make sure that the reason you're doing it is not some kind of an addiction. So in knowing your driven self, make sure you're doing it for all the right reasons.
(10:42):
When I think about freeing the True Selves of a million driven entrepreneurs, I don't believe that's an addiction that I'm applying or chasing to numb myself from some underlying pain. So I'm pretty darn convinced that I'm healthy enough to know that that's not why I'm doing it. I'm doing it for a much higher calling and purpose and reason. So just check yourself as a driven person. Are you riding the highs and lows just for the sake of riding the highs and lows, just to numb yourself, to distract yourself from all the reality in your life? That's what that prompts for me.
Rob Dube (11:24):
So good. Building a multi-million dollar company is a way to distract yourself from your pain, which is [inaudible 00:11:30].
Gino Wickman (11:30):
Soothing for a driven, traumatized entrepreneur. Exactly.
Rob Dube (11:35):
Whenever I share that with the audience, I see them go, "Huh."
Gino Wickman (11:42):
Right. I mean, it's like if my whole life went to shit, hypothetically, I would just go build a $10 million company because it'd heaven. I could just go hide from everything and just put head down and have a blast doing that, but everything else would be a shit show. So that isn't worth it to me.
Rob Dube (12:00):
Do you have an example of a time that you ever felt overwhelmed with the ups and downs?
Gino Wickman (12:07):
Oh, my God.
Rob Dube (12:07):
Does anything come to you?
Gino Wickman (12:08):
Yeah, but every 30 days. I'll lead into this with this funny thing because you were in Joe Polish's Genius Network, and so I am guessing you saw this comic strip on the wall. He has this really funny comic strip in his office, and it's these comic strip slides. Each one is a square box and it's an entrepreneur and there's about, I don't know, 20 of them. And so each box, you go through each box, the first 10, it says, "Oh, shit. Oh, shit. Oh, shit. Oh, shit. Oh, shit. Oh, shit. Oh, shit. Oh, shit," and then the 10th one says, "Yes." And then the next box, "Oh, shit. Oh, shit. Oh, shit. Oh, shit. Oh, shit. Yes." So that's entrepreneurialism. It's like nine oh, shits and getting your ass kicked and then a yes.
(12:56):
And so that's another way of describing the roller coaster, but you're asking me a question of overwhelm, you could tie it right to that. So yes, what I have to do at intervals is I have to go sit in silence, typically with a legal pad, and I shared this in one of my riffs, and I just have to make a list of everything that's going on to create clarity for myself because yes, it gets overwhelming. There's a lot of moving parts going on in my business and personal life, and that exercise just calms me right down in about 15 minutes. But the short answer is absolutely. And it seems like about every 30 days, I might want to say every week, but let's just say every 30 days.
Rob Dube (13:42):
Love it. It's so true too. Love to get your thoughts on this, and that is, I was thinking a little bit in my preparation in that success is fleeting and chasing it can create an unhealthy cycle for you of highs and lows. And focusing on your progress rather than perfection can provide you with a bit more of a more sustainable mindset. I was thinking about Dan Sullivan's gap in Gain, if I have that right.
Gino Wickman (14:10):
Yeah, that's what that sounds like.
Rob Dube (14:11):
And then mindfulness techniques. I know I go to be still a lot, number four, but even a gratitude practice that can help you savor your moments, really stay grounded during these highs and lows, these are things I was thinking about as I was preparing, and I was curious what you thought about that.
Gino Wickman (14:30):
Yeah, that was so perfectly said. I'm going to leave that right where it was. I've got nothing else to say to that. That was so well worded.
Rob Dube (14:38):
How about this identity and how entrepreneurs are often tied, their identity is so tied to their businesses? Does anything come up for you there in terms of the highs and the lows and they're always going, they're always fixing, they're always dealing with the crisis? And all of a sudden it's like your identity. That's who you become.
Gino Wickman (14:58):
Yeah. When your ego has you hijacked and has you convinced that you are your business, it is utterly impossible for you to not emotionally attach yourself to every high and low. And I will say that my belief, my experience is the day that you detach your identity from your business is the day that you are free, is the day that you become more creative, is the day that you make a bigger impact and is probably the day that your business goes to a whole nother level. So there's the high level answer, see episodes one through 20 for how to shed all that shit that I just said.
Rob Dube (15:43):
I love that. That is so good. I had an interview with a guy by the name of Jon Kabat-Zinn. He's the founder of Mindfulness-Based Stress Reduction. I was very stressed out about the interview. I prepared really well. I got in there, we did the interview. It was about an hour long. This is not an easy person to get an interview with. And when we were done recording, all the air just came out of me and he was so kind. He said, "That was a great interview. Great job, very well-prepared. Tell me a little bit about yourself." And the first thing I said, "Well, I'm this visionary at Image One, I have a company." He stopped me. He goes, "I don't care about any of that stuff. I want to know about you. Identity, baby." Let go. Let it go.
Gino Wickman (16:30):
Yeah, Jon Kabat-Zinn is Mr. Meditation.
Rob Dube (16:32):
Yes.
Gino Wickman (16:33):
That dude is grounded.
Rob Dube (16:35):
Any last words, Gino?
Gino Wickman (16:36):
We've said it all, Rob.
Rob Dube (16:38):
All right, my friend. Well, thank you as always for joining us and we'll look forward to seeing you next time. And in the meantime, stay focused and much love.
Gino Wickman (16:48):
Thank you for listening in today. We truly appreciate you taking the time to spend with us, and please tune in for the next episode. Until then, if you'd like to see where you are on your True Self journey, go to shedandshinepodcast.com to take the True Self assessment and receive personalized guidance. If you're all ready to begin your inner world journey with Rob and myself, please join us for the next round of the 10 Disciplines Group Coaching Program. We wish you all the best in freeing your True Self, stay focused and much love.
