Gino Wickman (00:00):
Welcome to the Shed and Shine podcast. I am Gino Wickman. This is where Rob Dube and I help driven entrepreneurs shed their shit, free their True Selves unlock true entrepreneurial freedom and shine. We truly appreciate you taking the time to spend with us and we hope to make a huge impact on you.
Rob Dube (00:21):
Hello everyone. My name is Rob Dube and I am here with my very good friend, Gino Wickman. Gino, great to see you.
Gino Wickman (00:29):
Hello, Rob.
Rob Dube (00:30):
So today we're going to talk about, I'm going to use two terms here, dysfunction or toxicity in entrepreneurship. We think the word dysfunction might be from our generation and maybe toxicity is a newer word. We're not really sure we came up with this topic because I asked our integrator, who was also named Rob. So Rob, thank you for your feedback. If he had anything he'd like to hear us talk about for this podcast, and this is one of his suggestions and he called it toxicity. And we asked him, "Is that a new way of saying dysfunction?" So we'll go between those two words. You all get the point. And so Gino, you've had, I don't even know how many thousands of sessions with entrepreneurs.
(01:20):
So I'm probably going to lean on you a little bit more than normal on this. But before you jump in, I am going to share a few things that came to mind for me. And as always, I always want to try to bring this content so it will relates a bit to the book Shine. So my impression is that entrepreneurs are a very special breed. You all out there, obviously super driven. We've established that in the book. And when I think about how dysfunction or toxicity shows up with entrepreneurs, this is low-hanging fruit to me. And it starts a little bit in that area of ego and man, do entrepreneurs have an ego, The need to be right, to fix everything, no patience, going million directions all at once, and they often cannot fully see what they are doing to their teams in the progress.
(02:15):
I also notice that entrepreneurs tend to exaggerate their successes. They posture themselves when they're with other entrepreneurs. One thing I've noticed, and by the way, I'm guilty of all this too, so I just want you to know, it's like mine's better than yours, even with learning things in business, like the greatest, latest new book, things like, "Did you read Shine? Oh, you have to read Shine, you have to go out and read it." Every book is the greatest book and you have to go read it and then they want to send it to you. And I totally get that. So let me pause there because I could keep going, but does anything come up for you?
Gino Wickman (02:55):
Oh, a bunch of things come up. And what's fun about this one is I did not prepare for this topic at all. And so I like how organic this is because yes, I use the term dysfunction and that's been a very popular term in the last 25 years. If toxicity is that word's been around forever as well, but if that's the new hot word that's more common than dysfunction. Amen and hallelujah. But there we go with words because in 20 years it's going to be some other word. Let's see if you and I can predict what the word will be at 20 years, we'll save that for the end of-
Rob Dube (03:27):
Shit show.
Gino Wickman (03:28):
Yeah, shit show. There you go. Now that was the seventies.
Rob Dube (03:30):
Yeah. Okay, good point.
Gino Wickman (03:31):
So here's what it prompts for me because I want to start by going to the opposite of toxicity and dysfunction and work backwards from there okay. And so the number of sessions is 2,100, just so you know, so I've done 2,100 full day sessions with 135 companies over the last 25 years. And so it's this beautiful blessing we have as EOS implementers to be inside the black box as we call it. I mean we see a company in all of its warts and all of the toxicity and all of the dysfunction. And so with that in those sessions, the number one thing we work to perpetuate in the organization is something we simply call open and honest. Okay? That's our expectation of every client we say at the beginning of every session because to the degree we can get that leadership team.
(04:28):
And so we work with the leadership team of the organization, that's the three to seven people at the helm with that driven entrepreneur. And so the goal is open and honest, open and honest, open and honest. They hear it over and over and over from us. And as they become more open and honest, that then perpetuates into the organization. Let's pretend this hypothetical company we're talking about right now has 50 people, okay. So the idea is that they get to a point where everyone is open and honest. And so when you get to a place where 50 out of 50 people are open and honest, and so now let's define that, open means that their minds are open, they're ready to hear and receive everything. It's not being filtered. Their ego is not hijacking them.
(05:12):
I am open to receive whatever you need to tell me. Honest means I'm comfortable speaking the truth. I'm comfortable saying what needs to be said, no holds barred, open and honest, okay. And so imagine that, 50 people, every interaction with 50 people, they're all open and they're all honest. And so the end game is that that's exactly what's happening. So everything can be said, everything is heard, and then decisions are made. That's utopia. Another way of thinking about it is that company has a soul. That company has core values, a core focus, it has a purpose. There's something that they're genetically encoded to do. And so everything that goes on in that organization to be in alignment with that core. And so where now let's go back to dysfunction and toxicity.
(06:02):
Where that company is not living by its soul, its core, its core values, its purpose. And where anyone in that organization is not being fully open and honest, there is toxicity and dysfunction and it always begins at the top. The fish stinks from the head down. And so if we go all the way to the helm of that 50 person organization, there is a driven entrepreneur. And what I find is to the degree that driven entrepreneur is open and honest and living by the core and the soul of that organization, it's a very healthy organization and where they're not, it's toxic and there's dysfunction and then it bleeds into the leadership team and all of those 50 people. Now we can get into some specifics, but I wanted to start with that context, but I want you to hold me to task. Was that clear? Did that make sense?
Rob Dube (06:51):
Oh yeah. No, I love the way you led us into that, perfect.
Gino Wickman (06:54):
Yeah, because I want everybody to see what good looks like because anything that isn't that is toxicity, is dysfunction.
Rob Dube (07:01):
Yeah. Okay. So I've seen how some entrepreneurs can be blind to a lot of this and how it creates a culture at their company where people aren't being open and honest. They're saying one thing to your face and they're doing other things behind your back. I wanted to share an example.
Gino Wickman (07:22):
Yeah, please.
Rob Dube (07:23):
There's an entrepreneur I've worked with, has an amazing business. It just started making serious money and it's got tons of growth potential. But what happened is the entrepreneur got bored and all of a sudden wants to open a completely unrelated business that's in a sexy but very saturated market with highly sophisticated players. And to get into this business, it requires a huge financial investment, which this person isn't completely prepared for. And they shared with me that their team is super confused and frustrated, but they don't care because they say, "They just don't get me." And so personally I didn't get it either. And it's causing issues in this amazing company that they built, which is really cash flowing now, and it's causing a completely dysfunctional or toxic environment now and they don't get it and they're not even paying attention to it in the way that I believe they need to. So what comes to mind for you with that?
Gino Wickman (08:28):
Well, so now I want to be careful because now I'm going to flip into EOS implementer mode and solve that problem. And I want to make sure that we zoom out and we're keeping this contextual because what I would suggest in that is that's a driven entrepreneur that's not being open and honest, okay. And so they are locked in on their vision and they're just not seeing everything for what it is. They're not seeing life as it is. So I want to use another example that's the exact same thing, because if I had a nickel for every time I've seen that exact situation that's always going on a million times right now just in America alone. So that's going on right now. And I was literally sitting with one of my clients who they have built this incredible business, and I don't want to get too specific to protect the innocent, but this business has 10X'd in the last 15 years, and they do what they do better than anyone else in the country.
(09:27):
And what I described it as is they're making Ford Focus' just hypothetically because it's a machine. It is a machine Now the entrepreneur has been so successful for so long, that entrepreneur wants to start to build Lamborghinis and you can't build a Lamborghini and a Ford Focus plant, and they are about to fucking blow up that whole business model. And that's what you're describing right now. So I've got to become a consultant for a minute because I can't not say this and then you take us where you want to take us. But whenever that happens, I've been able to head that off every single time and I think I have with this particular client. And that is I explain to them, you got to protect the cashflow machine, the business. You built something great here and that turn thing can last for 5, 10, 20, 50, more years, so don't mess with that.
(10:21):
And so what you need to do is start a different business with a different leadership team with different people or create what's known as a Skunk Works project where outside of the machine that runs so well outside of the Ford Focus factory, you got to open a Lamborghini factory. What that helps you do is understand how you're zapping resources because every time my client tries to do that, they kill the cashflow machine because they zap so much resource. So that creates dysfunction because all of a sudden all these Ford Focus manufacturing people are having to make Lamborghinis and they have no idea how to do that. They're twisted in a knot, they feel like they're failing. And that driven entrepreneurs at the top saying, "What's wrong with you guys? You were so successful. Now you're a bunch of fuck-ups." So there's an example of toxicity and dysfunction. So I don't know if I'm hitting what you wanted to hit.
Rob Dube (11:12):
But now let's try to bring it into Shine a little bit because as the entrepreneur, what are some of the behaviors that we see in those people? So first is ego-based decisions. To you use your example or let's use mine, getting into this sexy business because the other business that the person was in, it was just vanilla and they really wanted to get into this other thing, and it really felt coming from a place of ego. The other thing that I notice is not being fully present with their team members. So they're off with their great ideas and they are great ideas, and I know entrepreneurs believe they can execute on everything, all their ideas, but they're maybe not being fully present and listening deeply to their teams.
(12:01):
Other things I notice are perfectionism. So maybe to your point, we're up here saying, "Here's our great idea. We're going to make Lamborghinis." Now, why can't you do it? Or when you have them start doing it, "Why aren't you doing it this way and why can't you do it that way?" And so I see that sometimes. Another fear of failure, I notice. Not listening or being curious, asking good question, dismissing their most trusted team members' opinions. So those are some of the behaviors that were coming to mind when I was thinking about this. [inaudible 00:12:33].
Gino Wickman (12:33):
Yeah. Those are so great. So from now on, you be the example guy because those are some great examples and they're just not coming to me fast. But I want to grab one thing that you said in particular. And so now let's go to the wonderful work we do at this podcast. Shed and Shine, shed your shit and Shine. And we're talking about shedding layers. And so let's take that last example you said where that entrepreneur is fearing failure wants to be successful somehow there's shame going on inside the tectonic plates, the central nervous system, something in their life is making them feel shame where they don't feel good enough. And so they're constantly trying to be better so that they don't feel less or they're trying to beat themselves up to a better place where that doesn't work.
(13:16):
And so you now bring that dysfunction into an organization. Look at how that shows up because in a lot of cases, that driven entrepreneur is just trying to prove something to the world that they're okay. And the day that entrepreneur can shed that layer go to the root of that shame and the shame goes away, all of a sudden they see everything for what it is. And what's crazy is they will actually be more impactful. They'll build something even bigger and better, but right now they're making bad decisions through an ego filter that's just trying to solve and fill a hole that can't be filled. So hopefully that helps.
Rob Dube (13:54):
Totally, totally. And I always come back to the 10 Disciplines as a foundation. I think when you spend time with 10 year thinking and creating a 10 year then that helps you stay away from some of the shiny stuff. You are more focused. Taking time off is important so you are recharged and you gain more clarity and keep clear by the way, know thyself, what and why am I doing this? And you need to constantly go deeper and constantly challenge yourself to know yourself better. Be still again, spending time in quiet each day to allow your soul to catch up as you like to say. Now, I could keep going through these, but I'm going to pause because every one of the 10 Disciplines addresses them and when they're put together, it's so powerful.
Gino Wickman (14:53):
And so I appreciate you saying that. And I'm just going to make a sweeping statement there because yes, implementing these 10 Disciplines in your life goes to the root of all of this that we're describing, heals it, sheds it, and then all of a sudden you are a better driven entrepreneur for your leadership team. And then you will lead by example with your leadership team because they have stuff to shed. We want you to be the example and then the story continues until you get to all 50 people in that hypothetical organization. But what's coming to me, what's ringing in my head right now that I want to say out loud is this other thing that's really important and it's to know what you want.
(15:29):
So this is we can go right to 10 year thinking, and this is probably what prompted it, but as a driven entrepreneur, you have to know what you want and it's more common than not that you don't know and you're just chasing this abyss and you're trying to fill a hole. And so you've got to spend time and you already said it and stillness to listen to what's pulling you toward it. What is your calling? What is your purpose? There's this beautiful answer as a driven entrepreneurial soul that you will make a reality and so in that point. Let's hypothetically pretend that you do want to grow your organization at a hundred percent per year. Okay? Because some entrepreneurs need to do that, should do that, the organization needs to do that. It's very, very, very, very, very, very rare, but some do.
(16:20):
And then there's some that just need to grow at 10% and that's okay for everyone involved. But the point I'm trying to make is when you, the driven entrepreneur, you look out at your leadership team, those two to six sets of eyeballs, your head of marketing, your head of sales, your head of ops, your head of finance, your integrator, you have to know what you want. You have to convey that to them. And if it's a hundred percent growth per year, you need to build a leadership team that's capable of growing at a hundred percent per year. And if it's 10% a year, you need to look in those eyeballs and make sure that that's the case. What often happens is if you really and truly believe you are destined to build that company that fast, 50%, 60%, 100%, whatever their number is, it is unfair for you to try and get a bunch of 10% growth related leadership team members to grow as fast as you want.
(17:14):
That is abusive, that's unfair, that's dangerous. And so it's on you to make the tough people decisions and build a team that can grow that fast because you made that choice. You put those people in those seats, it's on you. And when we get deep into those conversations with the leadership team, sometimes that entrepreneur will come around and realize, "All right, you know what? It was my ego wanting to build $100 million company and I'd be really freaking happy with a $15 million company throwing off a 20% profit." And so open and honest, open and honest, open and honest, open and honest. So hopefully that point made sense.
Rob Dube (17:49):
Absolutely. Absolutely. All right.
Gino Wickman (17:50):
And you want to talk about dysfunction I mean, I've seen it so many times, those poor leadership team members that are 20% growth leadership team members and the entrepreneur is just beating them over the head every day with a hundred percent growth that is abusive, dysfunctional, toxic. Anyway.
Rob Dube (18:09):
To my past leadership team members from 20 years ago, I apologize, my ego was in the way that is. I love you all.
Gino Wickman (18:16):
That's awesome.
Rob Dube (18:19):
All right, Gino, anything else you want to say here?
Gino Wickman (18:22):
Yes, there is and I feel the need to say this because we finished this episode, I went to the bathroom and I had an epiphany. Okay and so examples don't always come to me really fast. And so I had the perfect example that is universal and it's the litmus test as to how dysfunctional and toxic you are as a driven entrepreneur or your leadership team is. Okay? And I call it even exchange of dialogue. And so here's when I know a team is dysfunctional and the entrepreneur is dysfunctional, it's when the entrepreneur is doing most of the talking in every fucking session. Now this one's going to hurt out there because most of you just went.
(19:12):
So my observation in learning after 2,100 full day sessions with 135 different driven entrepreneurs is when the driven entrepreneur is doing most of the talking, there's something going on. And even exchange of dialogue says if there's five people on that leadership team, each person should be talking 20% of the time. And so when I'm in a full day eight hour session with my client, each one of those people should be talking 20% of the time even exchange. And I've got sessions where that driven entrepreneur is talking 50% of the time. I've had situations where they're talking 75% of the time and my impassioned plea to you out there. If that's you, please become self-aware and just ask yourself why am I feeling the need to talk so much? And there's a couple things going on. A lot of it has to do with insecurities, but it could be as simple as your leadership team isn't strong enough.
(20:16):
In other words, you have put in place a strong leadership team that is there to take your company to the next level and make your vision a reality. They know what to do. You should not be shooting orders at them. And so if you're doing most of the talking, there's dysfunction, there's toxicity, there's something going on somewhere. And so if I can just simply keep it as make sure there's an even exchange of dialogue as I do with all of my teams, that's the litmus test to determine how dysfunctional you are because just as quickly the leadership team member that is talking 1% of the time, there's something going on there. We need to hear from them more. And so I just wanted to add that little nugget to it.
Rob Dube (20:58):
Well, thank you all for listening in as you always do. We look forward to seeing you next time. And as always, stay focused and much love.
Gino Wickman (21:09):
Thank you for listening in today. We truly appreciate you taking the time to spend with us and please tune in for the next episode. Until then, if you'd like to see where you are on your True Self journey, go to shedandshinepodcast.com to take the True Self assessment and receive personalized guidance. If you're all ready to begin your inner world journey with Rob and myself, please join us for the next round of the 10 Disciplines group coaching program. We wish you all the best and freeing your True Self. Stay focused and much love.
