Gino (00:00):
Welcome to the Shed and Shine podcast. I am Gino Wickman. This is where Rob Dube and I help driven entrepreneurs shed their shit, free their True Selves, unlock true entrepreneurial freedom and shine. We truly appreciate you taking the time to spend with us and we hope to make a huge impact on you.
Rob (00:21):
Hello, everyone. My name is Rob Dube and I am here with Gino Wickman. Gino, how are you today.
Gino (00:29):
Rob, I'm feeling a few things today. I'm feeling peaceful and grounded, while a little amped up in terms of this... I don't know, it's like this intensity, but it feels good and healthy.
Rob (00:47):
Yeah, I love it.
Gino (00:48):
So, get ready. I feel very intent today.
Rob (00:52):
I saw you before the podcast and you said you had ants in your pants?
Gino (00:55):
Yes.
Rob (00:55):
I haven't heard that term in a very long time. I love when you've bring out these kinds of terms that I haven't heard in a while. You're good at that.
Gino (01:02):
Yes. And since we're talking about that, I finished my riffs and a half hour early. And so, yeah, my foot has been tapping, waiting for you to get in here. So, I'm learning a lesson about patience in this last 45 minutes.
Rob (01:19):
Today, I want to start by explaining a concept that I've learned over the years, and it's called big T traumas and little T traumas, and how they differ in terms of impact to us and how we perceive them. And just for the listener, just to be clear, the T stands for trauma. So, a big T is something that is somewhat significant that happened in one's life. It could be a life altering event, such as an abuse that took place or a severe accident or maybe if you were involved in a natural disaster even. Now, that little T, again, the T standing for trauma, is usually more subtle. It's everyday stressors. It could be something like a minor accident that happened in your life, work conflicts, or probably more common you might think of, interpersonal issues that have happened in your lives, that happened in all of our lives.
(02:22):
And here's the thing, both of these traumas can have pretty profound effects on our mental health and our wellbeing. So, anyway, I wanted to cue you up with that as an opening thought and just say, do you think it's important to even distinguish between this big T and little T concept? And then I was even thinking, how does this even relate to us in our business lives? So, go wherever you want to go with that and I'll just piggyback.
Gino (02:54):
Yeah. And I'm eager to hear your piggybacks on this one, because the only thing I knew going into this episode was that you wanted to talk about big T and little T trauma. I've never heard of that before. So, in the interest of full disclosure, I Googled it and I just read the first two sentences on whatever popped up first. So, I get the gist of it. And then your explanation there was really helpful and matched what I read in two sentences. So, I almost want to start with a disclaimer that I am not an expert on big T and little T. I do have some opinions based on experience, because the first thing that flashed into my mind on this subject was I heard somebody describing trauma as not being about the experience or the event or the thing that happened. It's how you react to it. It's what goes on inside of your body.
(03:51):
And some people respond to those types of things in a much more resilient way, and so it's less traumatic. And so, my default, again, just my opinion, so please, you experts out there, I'm not an expert, but I don't understand why you would differentiate between big T and little T because it's all trauma nonetheless. And we all react to that trauma different. And so, trauma is trauma. And so, if you've reacted to something that has caused you trauma and your body, your energy is holding onto it, it's more about releasing that block and that energy and that trauma, no matter how big or small the experience, then it is about measuring it on a scale.
Rob (04:41):
Yeah. So, what comes up for me when you say that and why I was interested in this topic for us to even talk about, because who wants to talk about trauma?
Gino (04:52):
Fairly, we do it.
Rob (04:52):
How many people did we lose? Trauma, can you bring on a different topic please? But no, I do think it's important. That's why I brought it. But I hear sometimes from people that I'm speaking with, they'll say, "I haven't really had any major traumas in my life." And that is likely to be true, and I'm sure it is true. But then there's these little T traumas. And I remember somebody sharing with us and we included it in our book, in Shine. Somebody said, "It was like death by 1,000 paper cuts." So, in other words, he started to notice all these little things. He never had a major thing, but he started to notice all these little things. And these were infecting him both in his personal life and as he was running his company.
(05:44):
And so, that's why I thought about bringing awareness. As you were saying, they're all traumas, but is there value in bringing awareness to the traumas, especially when they're little ones, the little T type, because it's showing up in many, many ways throughout your day and your interactions with those that you love most? And then if you want to relate it to business, which I want to do in a minute, how is it showing up with your team?
Gino (06:14):
So, that is all prompting another thought along the same lines, because it's interesting, we're coming at this from I think two different directions. But I think that's what makes the conversation powerful, because what I keep coming back to is how on earth do you measure big T or little T or the amount of trauma. I get the concept. And so, excuse me, I get the concept. But what it makes me think about is I use the word resilience. And I'm thinking about people's level of resilient. And there are people that are incredibly resilient and people that have no resilience. And I'll give another metaphor, or example or analogy of that. And it's, when we become completely free, and zen and conscious, we're able to let experiences that used to react us pass through us. And so, if that's true, I believe that to be true, all of a sudden there's no trauma in that case.
(07:23):
And so, let's pretend we could all be that zen, and that conscious and that enlightened, all of a sudden you're highly resilient and there is no trauma. Now let's go to the other end of the spectrum, though, where you have no resilience. And my mind just goes to, I think about how kids are raised. Kids in the '50s were raised very different than kids in the '90s. And my humble opinion is they were more resilient back in the '50s than they are in the '90s. But we don't have to debate that. The point is when a kid is coddled, I believe they're less resilient. And a little T trauma to someone who has no resilience is a humongous T. And a humongous T to someone who is enlightened is a incy T. It ain't even a T. So, for what that's worth, if nothing else for conversation, that's just where my brain goes.
Rob (08:18):
Yeah. So, how do you distinguish them? I think the main point that I'm hoping that those listening will walk away with is that there may be some things you're ignoring in your life. Now, here's an example. I try to think, well, what would an example of this be? Let's just say growing up you lived in a household that was full of high performers. Let's say your parents were highly driven people and they had unsaid expectations of you. And to you, you may just be going through life like, "Yes, I need to go do X, Y or Z, because that's just how life is. That's just how things are. It's what I was brought up around." It wasn't like they were hammering on you all the time that you need to be better, you need to perform better, you need to be the best student. They weren't doing that. There was just a sense of things that were going on.
(09:16):
And maybe sometimes when you didn't perform, maybe there was a slight sense of disappointment, but it wasn't anything major or anything like that. But then here you go, you jump into a business. Now you're this driven entrepreneur or you're a driven person within an organization. And people around you aren't performing to your high standards that are just sort of ingrained in you and you're driving them to the ground because of it. And then let's just say one of your top employees leaves you and you're confused, like, what's going on? And what's going on is the person couldn't meet your high standards and they were unrealistic standards. And this all came from what you might call a little T trauma that you didn't really think was a T. It wasn't really a T. So, it's affecting your business. It's affecting the people around you. So, anyway, does that prompt anything for you?
Gino (10:14):
It prompts two things. So, a thought I'm reminded of is, it was about 15 years ago, I was doing a session, an EOS session for a client. And I'm wearing a collared sweater, which was kind of what I wore back then. And I had a hole in the elbow and I didn't know it. And I'm in the middle of my session and I raised my elbow. And I probably wore that sweater three other times. But this client pointed out, "Hey, you know have a hole in your sweater?" I was so embarrassed. I was so incredibly embarrassed. So, my point is that's a little T using your scale and the scale on Google. So, that's a little T. But what it helped me understand is it helped me pull a thread on why on earth would I turn red and feel embarrassed by something so freaking minor. It's like your zipper down.
(11:07):
So, when any of those things happen now, there's food in my teeth, my zipper's down, there's a hole, it just passes through me. But there was something there. And so, again, what I had to look at is my issues around judgment. So, I had to chase back to what you would call some of the big T that created that protection, that fear of judgment, that worrying about what people thought. So, fortunately, I've shed all of that. So, that's one thought that comes to mind. Second thought that comes to mind when you talk about that pressure from parents, and then how that transfers to potentially you out there, and how you're putting that on other people.
(11:41):
As I'm thinking about this, so many times I've heard the story of the parents that were engineers or doctors or attorneys and wanted their kids to become engineers, doctors and attorneys, so that the doctors pushed their kids to go college and become doctors or attorneys. And in the cases that I'm talking to these people, they're entrepreneurs, and so they grew up as aliens in their own household. And so, there was a ton of trauma in that, but most of them don't realize that trauma to your point. So, hopefully, some of you can relate to that out there because many of you out there had to deal with exactly that.
Rob (12:12):
So, this is a curiosity I have about... I love this hole in the sweater that you just used. So, when you noticed that there was more to, what did you say, pull the thread on that?
Gino (12:24):
Well, no pun intended.
Rob (12:25):
No, I totally get that. No, that's actually funny. You're right. Good point. But how did you even bring awareness that there was a thread to pull?
Gino (12:33):
Well, the awareness didn't come until 12 years later. I mean, the awareness came three years ago, but I was able to call back to that experience and say, "Why was that so emotional for me?" So, no, it took 12 years for me to start pulling the thread on that. And that's when I was able to go to the root of why on earth do I worry so much about what people think and how I look and all that good stuff.
Rob (13:00):
And how do you think the new hole in the sweater for you today, whatever that is, how do you think you... or maybe you don't, but how do you believe you might be bringing awareness to it more quickly and then doing something in your mind or through your body or whatever to allow it to go through you?
Gino (13:22):
Well, I hope this makes sense because I don't spend a second thinking about it anymore. So, the point I'm making in that is I have released whatever that trauma, that block, that samskara, that thing I was holding onto, that was the root that caused that reaction. And so, I am human. There will be times that I have a hole in my sock, and a hole in my shirt and a hole in my underwear. So, I am human, so it just passes through me. If I have food in my teeth, whatever it is, I am human. It happens. It's not a flaw in my being. It's I am not perfect. So, whatever the root of it was has been shed, and so those things just do not have any effect on me anymore.
Rob (14:12):
Okay. So, one of the things I did want to talk about is strategies or practices that help bring awareness to these traumas, similar to what I just mentioned a moment ago. I was thinking about the disciplines, actually. And first, I started with discipline three, came to myself, know thyself. And so, through therapy, I'm speaking through my own experiences. Through therapy, through retreats that I've been on, where I've been in extended periods of silence, I've gotten to know myself better. And that's helped me to bring greater awareness to when I'm experiencing something that's pinging me, that be a little T trauma. It could also be a big T trauma. And so, that's one way, that's a strategy or a practice for me.
(15:01):
Also, discipline number four, be still. I think if you're in prayer or journaling or meditation or some sort of contemplation, which I know that you've been doing with your journaling and your contemplation, you're bringing things up and you're letting... maybe those are times where you're letting them, as you said before, kind of flow through you so they don't sit with you and get out of control in a way. So, anything get prompted there for you?
Gino (15:25):
No, I don't think anything different than what I've shared, because the context I hope is clear, because then we can refer back to Shine, our book and other episodes about then shedding layers. Because the beauty of what we're talking about is just being aware. When you get pinged, when you get triggered, when that thing happens, like the hole in my sweater, the idea is to pull the thread, chase down where that's coming from, what the root of that is, and just process that. And I wish I could come up with 100 examples for you right now. And I just can't, unfortunately. But then the process starts of shedding that layer.
Rob (16:06):
Yeah. And I think that's a great place to end because I love this idea that came out of this discussion of pulling the thread, and think back to that idea of the hole in the sweater and pull the thread.
Gino (16:18):
So, we've got pull the thread and we've got ants in pants. Let's see how many more we can come up with by the time we're done.
Rob (16:25):
That's great, Gino. All right. We're out of time anyway. So, thanks for joining us, everyone. As always, we are so grateful for your time and your attention on so many of these important topics that we're bringing to the forefront. And as always, stay focused and much love to you.
Gino (16:44):
Thank you for listening in today. We truly appreciate you taking the time to spend with us. And please tune in for the next episode. Until then, if you'd like to see where you are on your True Self journey, go to shedandshinepodcast.com to take the True Self assessment and receive personalized guidance. If you're all ready to begin your inner world journey with Rob and myself, please join us for the next round of the 10 Disciplines group coaching program. We wish you all the best in freeing your True Self. Stay focused and much love.
